SCARZIP (SCARZ Information Pane)
Sonic Stadium
Green Hill Zone


THE 10 CULTMANDMENTS | THE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO POSTING AT SCARZ
Sonic Online
Sonic Dimension


Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> How to make a "sound rip" rom..., anyone have any ideas?
Overlord
post Jul 28 2005, 04:33 PM
Post #21


I love 1Mb/s DC++ Hubs, I really do

Group Icon

Group: CulT Family
Posts: 3,079
Joined: 21-August 03
From: Coventry, England
Member No.: 122
Gender: Male
Country: United Kingdom



MSF sounds good.

GSF is a nono - that's GBA sound rips =P

http://www.caitsith2.net/gsf/index.php


--------------------
Shadowsoft-Games.com



A new style.


From all over the UK and proud of it, bitches. =P


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Mystifying MSN Chats!Overlord: Also, I've discovered something unsettling
Overlord: The Now Playing and Fucking Love/Hate sections on people's sigs
Overlord: Are faded/darked versions of colours
Overlord: Grey is dark white, and the other 2 can be lightened to be red and blue, as they are
NiktheGreek: Yup
Overlord: What flag uses the colour and layout of the setup?
Overlord: RUSSIA
Overlord: IT'S AN INVASION D:
NiktheGreek: XDDDDD

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LocalH
post Jul 28 2005, 05:35 PM
Post #22


You're a complete bastard and we all hate you

Group Icon

Group: CulT Member
Posts: 542
Joined: 30-December 03
Member No.: 1,253
Gender: Male
Country: Kazakhstan



Ah yes, that didn't even enter into my mind. Perhaps GMR = Genesis Music Rip? Or GSR = Genesis Sound Rip? MDA = Mega Drive Audio?

I'm just throwing ideas out, that's all.


--------------------
Q: What does a man with a two foot cock have for breakfast?
A: This morning I had a boiled egg.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ICEknight
post Jul 28 2005, 06:13 PM
Post #23


MASTER EMERALD

Group Icon

Group: CulT Family
Posts: 1,744
Joined: 21-August 03
Member No.: 140
Gender: Male



QUOTE(LocalH @ Jul 28 2005, 11:35 PM)
MDA = Mega Drive Audio?
*

heheheheheh


--------------------

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eric Wright
post Jul 28 2005, 11:24 PM
Post #24


Here we goooo!!!

Group Icon

Group: CulT Family
Posts: 1,241
Joined: 13-October 03
From: Southern New England
Member No.: 760
Gender: Male
Country: United States



the idea of t he new sound format and everything is very cool and such, and would be a benefit to the gaming community as a whole...

but has anyone figured out how to make just the music playable in a rom ;_; I'm asking because I wanted to be able to play it on and record it from the real genesis hardware...


--------------------
IPB Image
F-Zero Arranged OST
You want it? Here's a torrent: CLICK HERE
Encoded using LAME 3.96.1, -q1 --preset extreme
I will be seeding for as long as I have this posted in my signature.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chazman
post Jul 29 2005, 12:09 AM
Post #25


Opposing the establishment since 2001

Group Icon

Group: SCARZ's Bitch
Posts: 1,156
Joined: 22-August 04
Member No.: 16
Gender: Male
Country: United States



What's with the format ideas? Just make it simple like SGD for Sega Genesis Dump, SMSD for Master System, GGD for gamegear.


Also, I'd help with said project if I had the ROM hacking and programming skills, but I do not! I'll help where I can though.


--------------------
Sieg Heil. May great health bestow itself on our all knowing leader, George Bush

re-pub-li-can (n) - 1) A wealthy advocate of crony capitalism and supporter
of a totalitarian state benefiting the elite. 2) An inbred redneck or member of a
family with a history of inbreeding that typically falls for any false propaganda
claiming gun rights and lower taxes.


I think this suits George Bush better than Hail to the Chief. There's three meanings to the song. PM me if you think you can guess the three meanings. Hint: Two are fairly obvious (to gamers) and the third will take an astounding amount of digging.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mask of Destiny
post Jul 31 2005, 08:21 AM
Post #26

Objective-C == suckage

Group Icon

Group: CulT Family
Posts: 968
Joined: 21-August 03
Member No.: 85
Gender: Male
Country: United States



QUOTE(Chazman @ Jul 27 2005, 04:49 PM)
Just create a format that does one of two things:

1) Rips straight to MIDI. The synthesizer chip in the Genesis is a MIDI chip. I'm sure the Z80 PSG emulation is the same way for compatibility sake. The output MIDI would have 9 channels for Genesis games and 13 for 32X games. Map it like so:

The YM2612 is an FM synth, not a MIDI chip. MIDI makes no attempt at specifying how a note should be created other than what voice to use and what pitch to play it at. Ripping to MIDI would sound nothing like the real thing.

Certain games (like Sonic 2 for instance) can be done in a cheesy way. All of the music data gets uploaded to the Z80 except for the DAC samples. So you just need to rip Z80 RAM out of a savestate and grab the appropriate portion of the ROM for the DAC samples and you're done. Unfortunately, there are a lot of games that don't do it this way.


--------------------
Do region conversions, dump cartridges, write Sega CD software. All this and more at http://www.retrodev.com/

Currently messing around with Mac OS X Cocoa development on my resurrected B&W G3.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LocalH
post Jul 31 2005, 11:54 AM
Post #27


You're a complete bastard and we all hate you

Group Icon

Group: CulT Member
Posts: 542
Joined: 30-December 03
Member No.: 1,253
Gender: Male
Country: Kazakhstan



You could use some sort of MIDI/MOD hybrid (almost like S3M), but what's the point in doing that if you can get to the original music driver and data? This could be played just as easily with a proper player, and it can also be used on the Genesis for whatever purpose (for example, with ripped music, and if we had a tracker that output data in the format used by the Sonic music driver, then it could also be used to create music for pretty much any Genesis project, whether it be game or demo).

Eric: Yeah, that's true, but then again, if there was a ripped format, then it could be automatically converted back to a ROM (assuming the ideas I put forth earlier, the converter would parse the music file, place each chunk at it's proper ROM address, and have a generic outfit that would copy the Z80 RAM contents into Z80 RAM, and initialize and play the music, presenting a simple interface to the user where the tune number can be changed, and music stopped).

This post has been edited by LocalH: Jul 31 2005, 11:56 AM


--------------------
Q: What does a man with a two foot cock have for breakfast?
A: This morning I had a boiled egg.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chazman
post Jul 31 2005, 12:04 PM
Post #28


Opposing the establishment since 2001

Group Icon

Group: SCARZ's Bitch
Posts: 1,156
Joined: 22-August 04
Member No.: 16
Gender: Male
Country: United States



I think I wasn't clear....

Make a standard MIDI format based format (redundant!) with extra header data containing the PCM ROM data and FM patches. That, as far as I can remember, is what I suggested for option 2. Use the FM emulation engine from Gens or Fusion (is that open sourced?) since those sound good. No need to reinvent the wheel.

That is for playing back the ripped music. To obtain the music in the first place, just do what Local H said. Read the Z80 RAM.

The FM chip is, as far as I am concerned, a MIDI synthesizer. If you don't want to refer to it that way, then fine. MIDI can also contain information on how a sound is to sound. It's called Sysex. Don't believe me? Look at how the MT-32 had to be programmed.


--------------------
Sieg Heil. May great health bestow itself on our all knowing leader, George Bush

re-pub-li-can (n) - 1) A wealthy advocate of crony capitalism and supporter
of a totalitarian state benefiting the elite. 2) An inbred redneck or member of a
family with a history of inbreeding that typically falls for any false propaganda
claiming gun rights and lower taxes.


I think this suits George Bush better than Hail to the Chief. There's three meanings to the song. PM me if you think you can guess the three meanings. Hint: Two are fairly obvious (to gamers) and the third will take an astounding amount of digging.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LocalH
post Jul 31 2005, 12:21 PM
Post #29


You're a complete bastard and we all hate you

Group Icon

Group: CulT Member
Posts: 542
Joined: 30-December 03
Member No.: 1,253
Gender: Male
Country: Kazakhstan



No, the YM2612 itself knows nothing about MIDI. It's up to software, should one try to do it, to set up the proper patches to ensure that a MIDI piano note plays back with an FM synth piano voice (such as non-wavetable sound cards with something like the OPL3). And plus, as MoD has stated before, that still isn't fully capable of handling MIDI, since the 2612 only has six FM channels and extremely limited polyphony (since you can control the four operators in channels 3 and 6 independently). Also remember, if you're using the DAC, you lose FM channel 6. But, I guess it's a matter of semantics, so I'm just stating the viewpoint I have.

We wouldn't need to go to any of that rigmarole to play back the tunes - just have a player that plops the chunks in the proper places and then starts playing. Why convert it to another file format to play it when you can play the ripped file directly, like with NSF/GBS/SID/GSF/PSF/USF/every other emulated sound format? The player would set up a standard Genesis environment and then populate the ROM and Z80 RAM as needed. The music driver's code (or glue code added by the ripper) should handle setting up the various registers in the system. The emulated player would have to emulate the 68k, Z80, YM2612, and the PSG part of the VDP (but the rest of the VDP could likely be ignored for this, unless you're going for absolute 100% accuracy with all possible player routines).


--------------------
Q: What does a man with a two foot cock have for breakfast?
A: This morning I had a boiled egg.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chazman
post Jul 31 2005, 02:12 PM
Post #30


Opposing the establishment since 2001

Group Icon

Group: SCARZ's Bitch
Posts: 1,156
Joined: 22-August 04
Member No.: 16
Gender: Male
Country: United States



QUOTE(LocalH @ Jul 31 2005, 09:21 AM)
No, the YM2612 itself knows nothing about MIDI. It's up to software, should one try to do it, to set up the proper patches to ensure that a MIDI piano note plays back with an FM synth piano voice (such as non-wavetable sound cards with something like the OPL3). And plus, as MoD has stated before, that still isn't fully capable of handling MIDI, since the 2612 only has six FM channels and extremely limited polyphony (since you can control the four operators in channels 3 and 6 independently). Also remember, if you're using the DAC, you lose FM channel 6. But, I guess it's a matter of semantics, so I'm just stating the viewpoint I have.

We wouldn't need to go to any of that rigmarole to play back the tunes - just have a player that plops the chunks in the proper places and then starts playing. Why convert it to another file format to play it when you can play the ripped file directly, like with NSF/GBS/SID/GSF/PSF/USF/every other emulated sound format? The player would set up a standard Genesis environment and then populate the ROM and Z80 RAM as needed. The music driver's code (or glue code added by the ripper) should handle setting up the various registers in the system. The emulated player would have to emulate the 68k, Z80, YM2612, and the PSG part of the VDP (but the rest of the VDP could likely be ignored for this, unless you're going for absolute 100% accuracy with all possible player routines).
*



Just because it has 6 channels and 6 notes of polyphony, it isn't MIDI (among other reasons)? The MT-32 could only do....8 channels I think. You might be thinking of General MIDI, which does define channel and polyphony limits. As for the implementation of MIDI, the YM2612 itself does not have to read MIDI. In fact, some synthesizers use another chip to process MIDI commands and another chip to generate the actual timbre.

This post has been edited by Chazman: Jul 31 2005, 02:13 PM


--------------------
Sieg Heil. May great health bestow itself on our all knowing leader, George Bush

re-pub-li-can (n) - 1) A wealthy advocate of crony capitalism and supporter
of a totalitarian state benefiting the elite. 2) An inbred redneck or member of a
family with a history of inbreeding that typically falls for any false propaganda
claiming gun rights and lower taxes.


I think this suits George Bush better than Hail to the Chief. There's three meanings to the song. PM me if you think you can guess the three meanings. Hint: Two are fairly obvious (to gamers) and the third will take an astounding amount of digging.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LocalH
post Jul 31 2005, 03:16 PM
Post #31


You're a complete bastard and we all hate you

Group Icon

Group: CulT Member
Posts: 542
Joined: 30-December 03
Member No.: 1,253
Gender: Male
Country: Kazakhstan



QUOTE(Chazman @ Jul 31 2005, 03:12 PM)
Just because it has 6 channels and 6 notes of polyphony, it isn't MIDI (among other reasons)? The MT-32 could only do....8 channels I think. You might be thinking of General MIDI, which does define channel and polyphony limits. As for the implementation of MIDI, the YM2612 itself does not have to read MIDI. In fact, some synthesizers use another chip to process MIDI commands and another chip to generate the actual timbre.
*


I'm simply referring to the way it's currently set up in the Genesis. If you develop software to handle MIDI data and output audio through the FM synth then it's MIDI. If you develop hardware that accepts industry-standard MIDI signals and produces an audio output, then it's MIDI. But simply in a standalone Genesis, without MIDI software, it's not MIDI, that's all I'm saying. The MT-32 wasn't intrinsically MIDI either - it just had support software and hardware (as many sound cards do). MIDI isn't a type of synthesis, it's just a standard that allows musical equipment to interoperate. MIDI can be utilized by devices that use FM synth, wavetable synth, or damn near any type of sound synthesis (I'm pretty sure the C64 had MIDI interface hardware available even).

I'm not saying that you couldn't play MIDI on the YM2612, I'm only saying that there's nothing about the 2612 that makes that possible, you have to interpret the MIDI data and send the proper patches (and samples if you so wish) to the 2612 yourself.


--------------------
Q: What does a man with a two foot cock have for breakfast?
A: This morning I had a boiled egg.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mask of Destiny
post Jul 31 2005, 05:35 PM
Post #32

Objective-C == suckage

Group Icon

Group: CulT Family
Posts: 968
Joined: 21-August 03
Member No.: 85
Gender: Male
Country: United States



Well the problem with just setting up a minimal emulator is that a lot of games use an old driver that uses the 68K for everything but DAC samples. The music routine is then called from the VINT handler, but it's probably called after all the graphics code is run and a lot of that code may lock up if you don't emulate the VDP.


--------------------
Do region conversions, dump cartridges, write Sega CD software. All this and more at http://www.retrodev.com/

Currently messing around with Mac OS X Cocoa development on my resurrected B&W G3.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LocalH
post Jul 31 2005, 05:47 PM
Post #33


You're a complete bastard and we all hate you

Group Icon

Group: CulT Member
Posts: 542
Joined: 30-December 03
Member No.: 1,253
Gender: Male
Country: Kazakhstan



Well, that was the impetus behind adding VIC-II emulation to SIDPLAY2. Some multi-speed routines required each play call within a frame to hit on a certain scanline, and so the VIC-II was emulated, at least enough to read out the raster register. Although I don't think we'd have to worry about that here. With a ripped method, you'd have already isolated the music driver and thus wouldn't have to worry about the rest of the game code interfering, and in such a case it should simply be a matter of writing a little bit of glue code to handle any differences between the way the player inits and plays per frame, and the way that the driver is expecting to be called (for example, if the driver uses one subroutine with different parameters, then you could write an 'init' subroutine that passes the proper parameters for initialization, and then write a 'play' subroutine that passes the proper parameters for playback). This would also be the way to consolidate music 'slots' within a game - for example, in the Sonic 2 proto, the music is jumbled around a bit, with a few fanfare tunes mixed in with the level BGMs. You could have a small lookup table that held the true music numbers in the order that you want them to play, and then use the player's current tune to index into this table.


--------------------
Q: What does a man with a two foot cock have for breakfast?
A: This morning I had a boiled egg.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mask of Destiny
post Jul 31 2005, 05:55 PM
Post #34

Objective-C == suckage

Group Icon

Group: CulT Family
Posts: 968
Joined: 21-August 03
Member No.: 85
Gender: Male
Country: United States



If your extractor is smart enough to locate the play routine, why not just locate the music data instead and write a player that understands the music data. The impression I got was that the data format didn't change all that much from version to version.


--------------------
Do region conversions, dump cartridges, write Sega CD software. All this and more at http://www.retrodev.com/

Currently messing around with Mac OS X Cocoa development on my resurrected B&W G3.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LocalH
post Jul 31 2005, 06:03 PM
Post #35


You're a complete bastard and we all hate you

Group Icon

Group: CulT Member
Posts: 542
Joined: 30-December 03
Member No.: 1,253
Gender: Male
Country: Kazakhstan



Well, I wasn't expecting the extraction process to be automated =P

Still, it would be nice to have a format that could contain ALL possible Genesis music, whether it be an official Sega driver, a third-party driver, or a tracker that someone may code down the line. To do that, you'd have to include the music driver in the rip. This is the approach that formats such as SID and NSF use, and while the Genesis may have a bit more uniformity in it's music drivers, I know for a fact that some developers rolled their own, and I'd want to support those as well.


--------------------
Q: What does a man with a two foot cock have for breakfast?
A: This morning I had a boiled egg.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tweaker
post Jul 31 2005, 06:21 PM
Post #36


Untouchable.

Group Icon

Group: CulT Family
Posts: 425
Joined: 9-December 04
From: Rochester, NY
Member No.: 9,059
Gender: Male
Country: United States



It'd be a bit harder to rip the driver itself... In many of the later Sonic games at least, portions of the driver are scattered throughout the entire ROM. I think we should start by finding a player to interpret Sonic music first before trying to go universal.


--------------------
IPB Image
IPB Image
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ICEknight
post Aug 1 2005, 08:36 AM
Post #37


MASTER EMERALD

Group Icon

Group: CulT Family
Posts: 1,744
Joined: 21-August 03
Member No.: 140
Gender: Male



I think we should go back to the idea of "making a sound rip ROM" at the moment... We already have many players for those, after all.

It wouldn't be the first time somebody ports other game's music for playing it in the Sonic Crackers sound test (I think it was Tweaker who managed to even port a couple of songs from Chaotix to Crackers for the "Sonic Chaotix" hack). This sound test would be perfect to experiment without much hassle, considering its simplicity (making it more "universal") and that it has all the possible values to choose from.

This post has been edited by ICEknight: Aug 1 2005, 08:45 AM


--------------------

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LocalH
post Aug 1 2005, 02:13 PM
Post #38


You're a complete bastard and we all hate you

Group Icon

Group: CulT Member
Posts: 542
Joined: 30-December 03
Member No.: 1,253
Gender: Male
Country: Kazakhstan



If we do that, then we have to find out why Crackers wants to hang on the title screen or sound test on a real Genesis (at least through my SMD it does, although if I hit Start immediately, it will go to the game).


--------------------
Q: What does a man with a two foot cock have for breakfast?
A: This morning I had a boiled egg.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Overlord
post Aug 1 2005, 02:28 PM
Post #39


I love 1Mb/s DC++ Hubs, I really do

Group Icon

Group: CulT Family
Posts: 3,079
Joined: 21-August 03
From: Coventry, England
Member No.: 122
Gender: Male
Country: United Kingdom



Could a savestate format be used, like SPC does?

As my understanding goes, the sound driver is in RAM on the SNES, and when an SPC is made it makes a copy of that driver and the sound data currently in RAM and saves it like a savestate, hence why SPCs are always the same size, 65kb (ish).


--------------------
Shadowsoft-Games.com



A new style.


From all over the UK and proud of it, bitches. =P


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Mystifying MSN Chats!Overlord: Also, I've discovered something unsettling
Overlord: The Now Playing and Fucking Love/Hate sections on people's sigs
Overlord: Are faded/darked versions of colours
Overlord: Grey is dark white, and the other 2 can be lightened to be red and blue, as they are
NiktheGreek: Yup
Overlord: What flag uses the colour and layout of the setup?
Overlord: RUSSIA
Overlord: IT'S AN INVASION D:
NiktheGreek: XDDDDD

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LocalH
post Aug 1 2005, 02:46 PM
Post #40


You're a complete bastard and we all hate you

Group Icon

Group: CulT Member
Posts: 542
Joined: 30-December 03
Member No.: 1,253
Gender: Male
Country: Kazakhstan



I don't think that will work as well. As I know it, the SPC-700 has it's own memory, and that's more or less what you're dumping in such a situation, program code and all. In the Genesis, you have either processor reading ROM data and spitting it out at the 2612 and the PSG. To be able to do the same thing would require dedicated RAM just for the sound chips, then you could just dump it.

So your options are either to rip the sound driver, or just rip the data and use it with a player that can handle that format of data.

If we're going the Crackers route, someone will have to disassemble it (so that everything but the sound test and music driver is stripped out).


--------------------
Q: What does a man with a two foot cock have for breakfast?
A: This morning I had a boiled egg.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Start new topic

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th June 2017 - 12:26 AM