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> Twilight Princess, "Direct" sequel to Ocarina of Time?
ωιτεουτκιης
post Nov 9 2005, 03:45 PM
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Regarding leaving for unknown places:

That almost says right up front that he left Hyrule. To where? Termina. He left Hyrule as a child in order to find Navi, who left Hyrule after Link went back in time for the last time.

My thoughts on the "two timelines" thing: Doesn't happen. When Link goes back in time, he goes back to before Ganondorf steals the Triforce of Power every time. He ALSO affects the future in various places (read: Nabooru). Therefore, it's not just his spirit going back in time, he himself is.

Therefore, everything that happened to Link in the future was reset at the end of the game, with the exception of a few things:

1. The Ocarina of Time does not return with Link. It remains with Zelda. This is rectified, however, by the fact that the time that Link returns to is before Link even receives the Ocarina of Time.

2. Ganondorf's curse. Now this is the ONLY place I can see where there is duality. Ganondorf is sent into the Dark World, where he remains DESPITE the travel back in time. He places a curse on Zelda, on Hyrule, and on Link, and bides his time. Meanwhile, the Ganondorf in the real world is still around. He likely gets nowhere and dies. However, the curse remains. And it's probably even triggered when the Real World Ganondorf dies (while the Dark World Ganondorf lives)


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Raiser
post Nov 9 2005, 03:45 PM
Post #22


same old avatar...

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QUOTE(blamemyparents @ Nov 9 2005, 03:29 PM) *

QUOTE(Stoko @ Nov 9 2005, 12:48 PM) *

blah blah blah words words words words BMP doesn't know who the dancing man is in my avatar cause he's not a brit more words Maybe the climax of the game is you leading people to safety atop mountains, as the water hits?

I want you all to stop and think about how INSANELY sweet that would be.


Seconded.

However if that were to occurr, it would completely contradict the Wind Waker's intro, which clearly states: "...But the Hero did not appear." That means there was NO Link to seal Ganon away, and that's why Hyrule was flooded. The only way that could work is Link dies at the end of the game and fails to save Hyrule, which is highly unlikely.

Alternatively, the Wind Waker's intro could refer to a third appearance of Ganon, one that occurrs after the Twilight Princess, in which no hero rose to stop him. That could allow the Twilight Princess to take place after Ocarina of time, however it seems unlikely that it's a direct prequel to the Wind Waker.

Still, that would be a pretty awesome climax...
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Demi
post Nov 9 2005, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE(blamemyparents @ Nov 9 2005, 08:29 PM) *

QUOTE(Stoko @ Nov 9 2005, 12:48 PM) *

blah blah blah words words words words BMP doesn't know who the dancing man is in my avatar cause he's not a brit more words Maybe the climax of the game is you leading people to safety atop mountains, as the water hits?

I want you all to stop and think about how INSANELY sweet that would be.

I agree... that would fucking rule. =P
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Stoko
post Nov 10 2005, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE(Raiser @ Nov 9 2005, 08:45 PM) *

QUOTE(blamemyparents @ Nov 9 2005, 03:29 PM) *

QUOTE(Stoko @ Nov 9 2005, 12:48 PM) *

blah blah blah words words words words BMP doesn't know who the dancing man is in my avatar cause he's not a brit more words Maybe the climax of the game is you leading people to safety atop mountains, as the water hits?

I want you all to stop and think about how INSANELY sweet that would be.


Seconded.

However if that were to occurr, it would completely contradict the Wind Waker's intro, which clearly states: "...But the Hero did not appear." That means there was NO Link to seal Ganon away, and that's why Hyrule was flooded. The only way that could work is Link dies at the end of the game and fails to save Hyrule, which is highly unlikely.

Alternatively, the Wind Waker's intro could refer to a third appearance of Ganon, one that occurrs after the Twilight Princess, in which no hero rose to stop him. That could allow the Twilight Princess to take place after Ocarina of time, however it seems unlikely that it's a direct prequel to the Wind Waker.

Still, that would be a pretty awesome climax...

Link is the Hero of Time, right? Perhaps, in the grand cosmic scheme of things, the flood was meant to occur. What if, as the Hero of Time, you gain inside knowledge throughout the game that this is supposed to happen. The Hero did not appear, he didn't seal Ganon away and he didn't prevent the flood. But what if he were there anyway? In disguise or something. Making sure that the Gorons survived, that Zelda or her descendant (Tetra's anscestor) survived, etc. Herding people to a mountain top like Moses herding animals into a massive ass boat. And hell, it's possible Link the Hero of Time had a kid with someone at some point, leading to the birth of Link the Hero of Wind. Were that to've happened, who's to say it didn't happen after the flood?

QUOTE(ωιτεο&# @ Nov 9 2005, 08:45 PM) *

Regarding leaving for unknown places:

That almost says right up front that he left Hyrule. To where? Termina. He left Hyrule as a child in order to find Navi, who left Hyrule after Link went back in time for the last time.

My thoughts on the "two timelines" thing: Doesn't happen. When Link goes back in time, he goes back to before Ganondorf steals the Triforce of Power every time. He ALSO affects the future in various places (read: Nabooru). Therefore, it's not just his spirit going back in time, he himself is.

Therefore, everything that happened to Link in the future was reset at the end of the game, with the exception of a few things:

1. The Ocarina of Time does not return with Link. It remains with Zelda. This is rectified, however, by the fact that the time that Link returns to is before Link even receives the Ocarina of Time.

2. Ganondorf's curse. Now this is the ONLY place I can see where there is duality. Ganondorf is sent into the Dark World, where he remains DESPITE the travel back in time. He places a curse on Zelda, on Hyrule, and on Link, and bides his time. Meanwhile, the Ganondorf in the real world is still around. He likely gets nowhere and dies. However, the curse remains. And it's probably even triggered when the Real World Ganondorf dies (while the Dark World Ganondorf lives)

I'm sorry WoK, but I barely understood the sentences you strung together there. For one, this "therefore, it's not just his spirit going back in time, he himself is". Huh? Of course it's just his spirit/consciousness/mind. Not once is Adult Link ever in the past. It's always Young Link, merely with the memories of being in the future in Adult Link's body.

Also, you're saying that when he goes back he goes back to before Ganondorf steals the Triforce of Power every time, therefore there is no dual timeline? What kind of logic is that? Some time travel theories say that even if you just went back in time, stood on a deserted dirt road for 1 second and came home, it'd still be an alternate timeline to the one you left. Totally indistinguishable, but different. Or that if you went back in time and killed Hitler, causing a new timeline, that the universe wouldn't destroy itself in a temporal paradox, you'd merely be creating an alternate timeline. Your original one would still exist, somewhere, you just couldn't get back. But you and anything you brought with you wouldn't disappear, because the timeline it all originated from would still exist.

Now, before WW, there was no reason to believe there would be another timeline, because as far as we saw, Link beat Ganon, then came home and replaced the Master Sword for the last time, sealing the chamber and preventing Ganon from getting in. Fine, great. He then buggered off to Terminia, and god knows what he did after that.

But WW is set after the original timeline, the one where Hyrule was fucked for 7 years. So now we have two stories, MM and WW, set in two different timelines. One where Link is in Hyrule and he's just buggering around looking for Navi when one day his horse is stolen (kind of a carefree thing to be doing, if he were in a world where Ganondorf had ultimate power and would keep it for the next 7 years). And another where we have a Link on an island in the Great Sea, a few hundred years after Ganondorf ruled Hyrule and was vanquished by the Hero of Time.

As you can see, they're not exactly compatible. Either one of them "didn't happen", isn't canon, or whatever. Or there're two timelines.

Also, BMP, the dancing man in my avatar is the 9th Doctor Who, played by Christopher Eccleston. He owns your arse, and is a man now dead :( (not Christopher Eccleston, the 9th Doctor). The 10th Doctor looks like a right tosser, but that doesn't change the 9th's pwnage.


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[23:52:06] <Overlord> MOVE OUT OF THE FUCKING PARKING SPACE
[23:52:11] <Overlord> I HAVE A MONSTER DELOREAN
[23:52:13] <Overlord> GRRRRRRRR
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ωιτεουτκιης
post Nov 10 2005, 06:36 PM
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There is always the possibility, as well, that Link never actually stops Ganondorf from entering the Temple of Light at the end of Ocarina of Time. In fact, if this happened, and then he disappeared into a world with warped time, it's very possible that Ganondorf could have taken over Hyrule in Link's absence. Before Link can find his way back, several years later, Ganondorf is defeated by the "other Link"*. Shortly after, Link returns and after a few MORE years Twilight Princess happens. Sometime after this, Ganondorf returns and nearly destroys Hyrule and the gods flood the earth.

* By this I mean Link at 10 years old in a 17-year old body.


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Markoso
post Nov 10 2005, 07:23 PM
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On the note of there being two Gannondorfs, I could swear that defeats the purpose of him being sealed into the Dark Realm, as he was supposed to be sealed "outside" existence so to speak, furthermore, saying there are two timelines doesn't explain how either timeline properly leads into the events that are supposed to happen after OoT (On the one hand, if the young link timeline leads into LttP, it screws over LttPs plot, which more or less brings up OoTs events with the sages, which shouldn't have happened in young links timeline, and well, yeh, you see how that screws over WW as well).

I say we let bygones be bygones, and accept that Nintendo created a rather unsightly plothole that we ourselves, shouldn't bother trying to fill.
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Demi
post Nov 10 2005, 07:27 PM
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You guys make Zelda fucking confusing.
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Stoko
post Nov 10 2005, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE(ωιτεο&# @ Nov 10 2005, 11:36 PM) *

There is always the possibility, as well, that Link never actually stops Ganondorf from entering the Temple of Light at the end of Ocarina of Time. In fact, if this happened, and then he disappeared into a world with <i>warped time</i>, it's very possible that Ganondorf could have taken over Hyrule in Link's absence. Before Link can find his way back, several years later, Ganondorf is defeated by the "other Link"*. Shortly after, Link returns and after a few MORE years Twilight Princess happens. Sometime after this, Ganondorf returns and nearly destroys Hyrule and the gods flood the earth.

* By this I mean Link at 10 years old in a 17-year old body.

No, there isn't always that possibility. For one, I don't remember Terminia ever being refered to as a world with warped time (correct me if I'm wrong and elaborate on exactly what that means).

Then there's the fact that the Temple of Light was opened when the Master Sword was removed. Each time Link came back from the future, it was to the moment just before he plucked the MS from it's resting place. He'd then bugger off, do whatever, then return and remove it again, once again opening the Temple of Light and allowing Ganondorf in. Once he finally once and for all came back from the future at the end of the game, he left the Temple of Time with the Master Sword still in it's place, and he never removed it again. Therefore, he never opened the Temple of Light again, and Ganondorf never got in.

Also, the way the transfer to the future worked was this:
Link makes as if to remove the Master Sword
His mind is removed from his body
A split second later, almost at the same time, his body and the sword are spirited away, opening the Temple of Light to Ganondorf
His consciousness is preserved in a coma like state, while his body is sustained and nourished and allowed to grow
*-7 years pass-*
His consciousness is reawakened and put back into his body
He fucks off out into the world, Master Sword in hand
He returns, and replaces the Master Sword to signal his desire to go back in time
His consciousness is ripped from his older body and sent back in time, placed into his younger body in that split second before it was spirited away, still acting out the motion of replacing the sword
When he wants to go back to the future, same thing, his consciousness is preserved and stored and eventually returned to a split second after he left his body in the future


At least, that's how I see it. To me, that's the only plausible way once you account for the fact that his body was active in those 7 years but his mind wasn't, and it's his mind going back in time.

So if that is indeed the way it works, which I admit is conjecture, but if it is, how could the following work out: "Before Link can find his way back, several years later, Ganondorf is defeated by the 'other Link'" ?

If Young Link is lost in Terminia, Ganondorf takes over Hyrule, there'd be no "other Link" to defeat him, because Other Link's body wasn't held in 'stasis' or whatever for 7 years, it instead went off to another world and got lost?

So yeah, that's my logic for debunking everything you just said, while also idly noting you didn't reply to a single thing I said before.


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Demi
post Nov 10 2005, 07:43 PM
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Maybe the reason Link "never come" in the begining of Wind Waker, is because he was stuck in that Majora's Mask place, or frozen in time somewhere. =|
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Stoko
post Nov 10 2005, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE(Demi @ Nov 11 2005, 12:43 AM) *

Maybe the reason Link "never come" in the begining of Wind Waker, is because he was stuck in that Majora's Mask place, or frozen in time somewhere. =|

Or maybe it's simply because he didn't have a DeLorean handy, and died long before the flood issue ever arose without having been to the future.


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[23:52:06] <Overlord> MOVE OUT OF THE FUCKING PARKING SPACE
[23:52:11] <Overlord> I HAVE A MONSTER DELOREAN
[23:52:13] <Overlord> GRRRRRRRR
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ωιτεουτκιης
post Nov 10 2005, 08:55 PM
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This is (kind of) how it looks to me.

Keep in mind: Ganondorf could have opened the Temple of Light on his own: He was attempting to gain the three Spiritual Stones when Link got them.


And Termina has warped time in the sense that Link can bend time at will, speeding up time, slowing it down, or backing up to as much as three days prior.


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Servantes Chaotica
post Nov 10 2005, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE(Demi @ Nov 10 2005, 06:43 PM) *

Maybe the reason Link "never come" in the begining of Wind Waker, is because he was stuck in that Majora's Mask place, or frozen in time somewhere. =|


Frozen in time, yes. There are direct quotes from Miyamoto and others that support the multiple time line theory. I haven't read them in about a year, but I do recall that they seemed retconned to justify Wind Waker and far from fully developed. Applying logic to the quotes, it seems to me that there are, confusingly, three paths in time.

1. Link vanishes into time, Gannondorf takes over. This eventually leads to the Wind Waker.

2. Link vanishes into time, Gannondorf takes over, Link returns with the Master sword and defeats Gannondorf. This timeline then collapses on itself.

3. Link never vanishes, and prevents Gannondorf taking over. He then journeys into Termina. This eventually leads to all other Zelda games.


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The Little Red Man
post Nov 11 2005, 12:51 AM
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I'm going to take this opportunity, after reading all of this, to say how much I love Zelda.


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